作者:思科特‧倫敦 Scott London     譯者:林震洋 Huck Lin

Bill Mollison calls himself a field biologist and itinerant teacher. But it would be more accurate to describe him as an instigator. When he published Permaculture One in 1978, he launched an international land-use movement many regard as subversive, even revolutionary.

比爾‧默立森(Bill Mollison)稱呼自己是田野生物學家與浪遊教師。然而,更準確的描述則是一位發起人或始作俑者。當他在1978年出版「永久性農業之一」(Permaculture One)的時候,他也發起了一次跨越國界的土地利用運動,很多人認為這運動是極具顛覆性的,甚至堪稱為革命。
Permaculture – from permanent and agriculture – is an integrated design philosophy that encompasses gardening, architecture, horticulture, ecology, even money management and community design. The basic approach is to create sustainable systems that provide for their own needs and recycle their waste.

永久性農業- 永久和農業 -是一套整合式的設計理念,包含農藝、建築、園藝、生態,甚至財務管理和社區規劃。基本的做法是建立可持續的系統,讓該系統能自行供應所需,並不斷循環利用自身的廢棄物。

Mollison developed permaculture after spending decades in the rainforests and deserts of Australia studying ecosystems. He observed that plants naturally group themselves in mutually beneficial communities. He used this idea to develop a different approach to agriculture and community design, one that seeks to place the right elements together so they sustain and support each other.


Today his ideas have spread and taken root in almost every country on the globe. Permaculture is now being practiced in the rainforests of South America, in the Kalahari desert, in the arctic north of Scandinavia, and in communities all over North America. In New Mexico, for example, farmers have used permaculture to transform hard-packed dirt lots into lush gardens and tree orchards without using any heavy machinery. In Davis, California, one community uses bath and laundry water to flush toilets and irrigate gardens. In Toronto, a team of architects has created a design for an urban infill house that doesn't tap into city water or sewage infrastructure and that costs only a few hundred dollars a year to operate.
While Mollison is still unknown to most Americans, he is a national icon down under. He has been named Australia's “Man of the Year” and in 1981 he received the prestigious Right Livelihood Award, also known as the Alternative Nobel Prize, for his work developing and promoting permaculture.

I sat down with him to discuss his innovative design philosophy. We met over the course of two afternoons in Santa Barbara in conjunction with an intensive two-week course he teaches each year in Ojai. A short, round man with a white beard and a big smile, he is one of the most affable and good-natured people I've met. An inveterate raconteur, he seems to have a story – or a bad joke – for every occasion. His comments are often rounded out by a hearty and infectious laugh.
他每年會到加州歐海市(Ojai)開授為期兩週的密集課程,課程中間的兩個午後時光,我和他相約在聖塔巴巴拉(Santa Barbara),討論這新穎的設計哲學。一位個子不高、身材圓潤的男子,滿臉白鬍子加上開懷的笑容。他是我所見過最和藹善良的人士之一,頑固而又健談,他似乎可以針對任何場合都說出一個故事——或者嚴肅的玩笑;他的評論往往是以爽朗而引人共鳴的笑聲來結尾。
* *
Scott London: A reviewer once described your teachings as "seditious."
Bill Mollison: Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, it's seditious. But it's peaceful sedition.
London : When did you begin teaching permaculture?
Mollison : In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had ever applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We'd had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we'd been losing for 7,000 years — everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings. And physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It's curious that we never apply what we know to how we actually live.

倫敦 :你什麼時候開始傳授樸門永續設計?
London : It tells us something about our current environmental problems.
Mollison : It does. I remember the Club of Rome report in 1967 which said that the deterioration of the environment was inevitable due to population growth and overconsumption of resources. After reading that, I thought, "People are so stupid and so destructive — we can do nothing for them."” So I withdrew from society. I thought I would leave and just sit on a hill and watch it collapse.
It took me about three weeks before I realized that I had to get back and fight. [Laughs] You know, you have to get out in order to want to get back in.

倫敦 :這透露出當前環境問題的一些跡象。
London : Is that when the idea of permaculture was born?
Mollison : It actually goes back to 1959. I was in the Tasmanian rain forest studying the interaction between browsing marsupials and forest regeneration. We weren't having a lot of success regenerating forests with a big marsupial population. So I created a simple system with 23 woody plant species, of which only four were dominant, and only two real browsing marsupials. It was a very flexible system based on the interactions of components, not types of species. It occurred to me one evening that we could build systems that worked better than that one.
That was a remarkable revelation. Ever so often in your life — perhaps once a decade — you have a revelation. If you are an aborigine, that defines your age. You only have a revelation once every age, no matter what your chronological age. If you're lucky, you have three good revelations in a lifetime.
Because I was an educator, I realized that if I didn't teach it, it wouldn't go anywhere. So I started to develop design instructions based on passive knowledge and I wrote a book about it called Permaculture One. To my horror, everybody was interested in it. [Laughs] I got thousands of letters saying, "You've articulated something that I've had in my mind for years," and "You've put something into my hands which I can use."

倫敦 :那也是您孕育出樸門永續設計概念的時期嗎?
因為我是一個教育工作者,我意識到,如果我不去教授它,它不會有絲毫的流傳。於是,我開始以被動的知識(passive knowledge)為基礎,發展設計的準則,我寫了一本書叫做《永久性農業之一》(Permaculture One)。這本書受歡迎的程度簡直讓我驚駭。[笑]我收到數以千計的信件說,「你所闡明的內容,多年來也一直浮現在我的腦海」和「你讓我知道如何真正善用手邊的器物。」
London : Permaculture is based on scientific principles and research. But it seems to me that it also draws on traditional and indigenous folk wisdom.
Mollison : Well, if I go to an old Greek lady sitting in a vineyard and ask, "Why have you planted roses among your grapes?" she will say to me, "Because the rose is the doctor of the grape. If you don't plant roses, the grapes get ill." That doesn't do me a lot of good. But if I can find out that the rose exudes a certain root chemical that is taken up by the grape root which in turn repels the white fly (which is the scientific way of saying the same thing), then I have something very useful.
Traditional knowledge is always of that nature. I know a Filipino man who always plants a chili and four beans in the same hole as the banana root. I asked him, "Why do you plant a chili with the banana?" And he said, "Don't you know that you must always plant these things together." Well, I worked out that the beans fix the nitrogen and the chili prevents beetles from attacking the banana root. And that works very well.


London : You have introduced permaculture in places that still rely on traditional farming practices. Have they been receptive to your ideas?
Mollison : I have a terribly tricky way of approaching indigenous tribal people. For example, I'll go to the Central Desert, where everyone is half-starved, and say, "I wonder if I can help you." And I'll lie and say, "I don't know how to do this?" And they say, "Oh, come on, we'll make it work." By the time it's done, they have done it themselves.
I remember going back to a school we started in Zimbabwe. It's green and surrounded by food. The temperature in the classroom is controlled. I asked them, "Who did this?" They said, "We did!" When people do it for themselves, they are proud of it.

London : For some people — particularly indigenous tribes — the notion that you can grow your own food is revolutionary.
Mollison : When you grow up in a world where you have a very minor effect on the land, you don't think of creating resources for yourself. What falls on the ground you eat. And your numbers are governed by what falls on the ground. Permaculture allows you to think differently because you can grow everything that you need very easily.
For example, the bushmen of the Kalahari have a native bean called the morama bean. It is a perennial that grows underground and spreads out when it rains. They used to go out and collect it. But after they were pushed off their lands to make room for game and natural parks the morama bean was hard to find. I asked them, "Why don't you plant them here?" They said, "Do you think we could?" So we planted the bean in their gardens. Up to that point, they never actually thought of planting something. It stunned them that they could actually do that.
The same thing happened with the mongongo tree which grows on the top of sand dunes. They had never actually moved the tree from one dune to another. But I went and cut a branch off the mother tree and stuck it in the sand. The thing started to sprout leaves and produce mongongo nuts. Now they grow the trees wherever they want.

例如:喀拉哈里沙漠的布希曼人,擁有一種稱為morama的原生豆科植物。它是多年生的,平常在地底下蔓延,等到降雨之後才會發出芽。以往布希曼人會外出採集這種植物。但是當他們被迫遷,離開自己的土地,為了騰出空間給遊憩與自然公園,就很難找到morama豆子。我問他們:「為什麼你們不在這兒種植 morama?」他們說「你認為我們可以這樣做嗎?」於是,我們到園圃裡去種植豆子。在那時間點之前,他們從來沒想過要種植任何東西。他們非常驚訝自己竟然可以做出這種事。

London : You once described modern technological agriculture as a form of "witchcraft."
Mollison : Well, it is a sort of witchcraft. Today we have more soil scientists than at any other time in history. If you plot the rise of soil scientists against the loss of soil, you see that the more of them you have, the more soil you lose.
I remember seeing soldiers returning from the War in 1947. They had these little steel canisters with a snap-off top. When they snapped the tops off, they sprayed DDT all over the room so you never saw any more flies or mosquitoes — or cats. [Laughs] After the war, they started to use those chemicals in agriculture. The gases used by the Nazis were now developed for agriculture.。 Tanks were made into plows. Part of the reason for the huge surge in artificial fertilizer was that the industry was geared up to produce nitrates for explosives. Then they suddenly discovered you could put it on your crops and get great results.
倫敦 :您曾經把現代科技化的農業稱為一種「巫術」形式。

London : So the green revolution was a kind of war against the land, in a manner of speaking.
Mollison : That's right. Governments still support this kind of agriculture to the tune of about $40 billion each year. None of that goes to supporting alternative systems like organic or soil-creating agriculture. Even China is adopting modern chemical agriculture now.
倫敦 :因此,從這角度來看,綠色革命其實是向土地開戰。
莫利森 :是的。各國政府依然支持這種農業,每年達到400億美元左右的規模。這些經費都沒有用來支持其他替代系統,例如有機農業或是培育土壤的農業。就連當今的中國,也採用現代化學農企業。

London : I remember the late economist Robert Theobald saying to me that if China decides to go the way of the West, the environmental ballgame is over.
Mollison : I overheard two "Eurocrats" in Vienna talking about the environment. One said, "How long do you think we've got?" The other said, "Ten years." And the first one said, "You're an optimist." So I said to them, "If China begins to develop motor vehicles, we've got two years."
倫敦:我記得已故的經濟學家羅伯特‧西奧博爾德(Robert Theobald)曾經對我說「如果中國決定走上西方世界的道路,那全球的環境也就玩完了。」

London : What kind of overconsumption bothers you the most?
Mollison : I hate lawns. Subconsciously I think we all hate them because we're their slaves. Imagine the millions of people who get on their lawn-mowers and ride around in circles every Saturday and Sunday.
They have all these new subdivisions in Australia which are between one and five acres. You see people coming home from work on Friday, getting on their little ride-on mowers, and mowing all weekend. On Monday morning you can drive through these areas and see all these mowers halfway across the five acres, waiting for the next Friday. Like idiots, we spend all our spare time driving these crazy machines, cutting grass which is only going to grow back again next week.
倫敦 :哪一種類型的過度消費最使你煩惱?
莫利森 :我痛恨草坪。我認為每個人在潛意識中都厭惡草坪,因為我們是草坪的奴隸。想像一下,每個星期六和星期日,有數百萬人爬上剪草機、到處繞圈圈的情景。

London : Permaculture teaches us how to use the minimum amount of energy needed to get a job done.
Mollison : That's right. Every house should be over-producing its energy and selling to the grid. We have built entire villages that do that – where one or two buildings hold the solar panels for all sixty homes and sell the surplus to the grid. In seven years, you can pay off all your expenses and run free. They use this same idea in Denmark. Every village there has a windmill that can fuel up to 800 homes.
倫敦 :永久性農業教導我們如何使用的最低度的能源來完成一項工作。
莫利森:是的。家家戶戶都應該生產多餘的能源並回銷給公立電網。我們已經建立了幾個村莊達到這種理想——其中一、兩座建築物裝配有太陽能電板,供應給村中的60 戶住家,多餘的電力回銷給網格電力公司。7年之後,你就可以賺回所有的花費然後獲得免費的電力。也有人在丹麥使用相同的構想,每個村莊都有一座風車,可以供應800戶家庭的電力需求。

London : The same principle probably applies to human energy as well. I noticed that you discourage digging in gardens because it requires energy that can be better used for other things.
Mollison : Well, some people like digging. It's a bit like having an exercise bike in your bedroom. But I prefer to leave it to the worms. They do a great job. I've created fantastic soil just from mulching.
倫敦 :同樣的原則好像也適用於人力能源。我注意到,你並不鼓勵人們在園圃中的進行挖掘,因為那需要消耗能源,而人力能源可以有更好的用途。
莫利森 :嗯,有些人喜歡挖東挖西。它有點像是室內的健身自行車。但我寧願把這工作留給蚯蚓那些小蟲,他們天生就是幹這行,我已經從添加覆蓋物的行動中創造美好的土壤。
London : Does permaculture apply to those of us who live in cities?
Mollison : Yes, there is a whole section in the manual about urban permaculture. When I first went to New York, I helped start a little herb-farm in the South Bronx. The land was very cheap there because there was no power, no water, no police, and there were tons of drugs. This little farm grew to supply eight percent of New York's herbs. There are now 1,100 city farms in New York.

倫敦 :樸門永續設計是否也適合生活在城市中的居民?

London : Short of starting a farm, what can we do to make our cities more sustainable?
Mollison : Catch the water off your roof. Grow your own food. Make your own energy. It's insanely easy to do all that. It takes you less time to grow your food than to walk down to the supermarket to buy it. Ask any good organic gardener who mulches how much time he spends on his garden and he'll say, "Oh, a few minutes every week." By the time you have taken your car and driven to the supermarket, taken your foraging-trolley and collected your wild greens, and driven back home again, you've spent a good hour or two — plus you've spent a lot of money.
倫敦 :除了創設一座農場,我們還有什麼方法能幫助自己的城市存續得更久?

London : Even though permaculture is based on scientific principles, it seems to have a very strong philosophical or ethical dimension.
Mollison : There is an ethical dimension because I think science without ethics is sociopathology. To say, "I'll apply what I know regardless of the outcome" is to take absolutely no responsibility for your actions. I don't want to be associated with that sort of science.
倫敦 :雖然樸門永續設計是以科學原則為基礎,但它似乎也有很紮實的哲學或道德特性。
莫利森 :它的確具有道德特性,因為我認為不包含倫理在內的科學,是一種社會病態(sociopathology)。例如,「我會運用我所知的一切,而不管結果如何」,這種想法完全不對自己的行為負責任。我不希望與那樣的科學為伍。

London : What do you think you've started?
Mollison : Well, it's a revolution. But it's the sort of revolution that no one will notice. It might get a little shadier. Buildings might function better. You might have less money to earn because your food is all around you and you don't have any energy costs. Giant amounts of money might be freed up in society so that we can provide for ourselves better.
So it's a revolution. But permaculture is anti-political. There is no room for politicians or administrators or priests. And there are no laws either. The only ethics we obey are: care of the earth, care of people, and reinvestment in those ends.
倫敦 :你如何描述你所開創的這件事?
莫利森 :嗯,這是一場革命。但它是那種沒人會注意到的革命。它可能很隱微不顯。可能是建築物運作地更好;也可能是您不再需要賺大錢,因為你周圍到處是食物,也沒有任何能源成本開支;或許巨額的資金被釋放到社會公眾領域,讓我們替自己提供更好的生活。

This interview was adapted from the radio series Insight & Outlook , hosted by Scott London . It appeared in the Summer 2005 issue of Green Living magazine.
這次專訪改編自電台節目「洞察及展望」(Insight & Outlook),由思科特倫敦主持。它也刊載於2005年夏季發行的《綠色生活》(Green Living)雜誌。


dgsunlight wrote 11 年 11 週 ago


對樸門設計很有興趣~只是礙於孩子還小~目前留職停薪念書中~所以參加北部活動機會不高~ 請問您們會到南部坐演講或活動嗎?? 有相關活動時~可否告知~ 又... 建議版主~ 這邊有許多較無相關的廣告留言~... 對初來乍到但有興趣的民眾~...若萬一看到英文又頭痛~ 會讓我們望之卻步的~ 可否稍微清理一下~ 感恩~

台灣樸門永續設計學會秘書處 wrote 11 年 6 週 ago




來賓 wrote 12 年 13 週 ago




來賓 wrote 12 年 13 週 ago


認何事都會牽扯到現實面 現實面跟金錢就脫不了關係 但金錢不是 唯一 放下物質的執著 簡單環保的生活 應是 台灣以往老祖先所謂 安貧樂道的生活方式 認何事都要有經驗 經驗必需自己去嘗試 自己才會懂 要學經驗 要付出 時間 體力 也許 金錢 (坐車 或 搭飛機) 我不知道台灣那裡有 permaculture 的農場 可以讓你去學習 但每個人都要惦惦自己的斤兩 知道自己適不適合 不是一昧跟著流行吧 了解自己 了解天地 自然 從做人的基本面開始 吧 人是甚麼呢? 問一問自己

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago


倫敦 :永久性農業教導我們如何使用「的」最低度的能源來完成一項工作。 莫利森:是的。家家戶戶都應該生產多餘的能源並回銷給公立電網。我們已經建立了幾個村莊達到這種理想——其中一、兩座建築物裝配有太陽能電板,供應給村中的60 戶住家,多餘的電力回銷給網格電力公司。7年之後,你就可以賺回所有的花費然後獲得免費的電力。也有人在丹麥使用相同的構想,每個村莊都有一座風車,可以供應800戶家庭的電力需求。

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago

RE: 知容易 行難

「不是只是賺錢 買物質 而已」這種心態我持正向同意。

但我內心更有一個疑惑: 「到紐西蘭」 這個動作似乎也是先離不開 $$。

就像, 有滿多「國際志工」,也是需要先個人支出一筆「準備金」。


推廣、執行等等就現實面都需要 $$。全職務農應該無法做這樣的支出吧?

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago


請問除了十月二十三日的這場。近期有類似的分享會嗎? (十月九日前的)

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago


permaculture是用少干擾的方式整地,除非有極大的必要,否則是不翻土的。 對待雜草也有一套管理方式。當然在系統剛建立前需要花許多時間觀察規劃,一旦系統建立好,就讓自然來作功了。十月二十三日我們會有一場案例分享會,有興趣的話歡迎報名囉!

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago

知容易 行難

但願能早日看到一個自給自足 安於平淡 簡單 享受孤獨 樂於分享 的農場 主人 在此出現 如真心想學 有心想做 那麼到紐西蘭 來打工換食宿 兼旅遊 擴展人生體驗 學習 經驗 必竟人生是來活一場的 不是只是賺錢 買物質 而已

來賓 wrote 12 年 14 週 ago



可是整地時間呢? @@~

Permaculture 看了一陣子了。可是好像都只看到概念推廣、沒看到設計規劃分享哩?

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